24/09/17 - 08:42 AM


Author Topic: WTF  (Read 1551 times)

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manmagic

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WTF
« on: August 20, 2017, 04:59:43 PM »
Chris (founder of PIX) is getting accused of some pretty serious stuff. Serious enough where Ghost Mice have canceled their tour.

Apparently punks really aren't that much better than anybody else. 

jer

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Re: WTF
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2017, 05:30:26 PM »
Fucking hell.
Anti-Creative Records sells some things.
http://www.anti-creative.com

BlakeK

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Re: WTF
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2017, 05:31:21 PM »
Chris (founder of PIX) is getting accused of some pretty serious stuff. Serious enough where Ghost Mice have canceled their tour.

Apparently punks really aren't that much better than anybody else. 
I hadn't heard anything but when I saw this I looked and couldn't find any information. Links or details?

EDIT: I had to do a lot of digging and was able to find a Facebook post from the victim. I feel like the story is buried or maybe just hasn't developed to be out there. This sucks.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2017, 05:51:46 PM by BlakeK »
Having said that, I'd rather listen to Papa Roach than GG Allin

pronetoaccidents

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Re: WTF
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2017, 10:11:28 AM »
yeah.. pretty crazy even though i guess it's not crazy. people can always find capacity to disappoint you (assuming there's any truth to it)
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momitsnowme

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Re: WTF
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2017, 11:38:20 AM »
Man I have a lot of thoughts and feelings about this.

BlakeK

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Re: WTF
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2017, 03:03:09 PM »
Man I have a lot of thoughts and feelings about this.
Please share them if you wouldn't mind
Having said that, I'd rather listen to Papa Roach than GG Allin

momitsnowme

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Re: WTF
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2017, 08:14:34 PM »
I really don't know if I can articulate all of them. But here are some.

Reading the screenshot surprised and disappointed me but I also can't say I'm shocked. For one thing, there are very few people in the world, sadly, that this would absolutely SHOCK me about. Like surprise me, yes, but shock me to the point of not even believing it? Not many. With the risk of making this about me, when it really shouldn't be, it's probably because I've been molested/assaulted four times, two of which were by people who were supposedly punks/feminists. I don't mean it in like a "I don't trust anyone" way...more just like my view of anyone can adapt to include this shit pretty easily because we live in a fucked up culture and people are complicated and I've witnessed that first hand.

But also because the description of the other aspects of his behavior seem pretty honest. I consider Chris a friend. His art is really important to me. He's the reason I met Jer. He drew our wedding invitations. Etc. But I've been weirded out before by his influence over people younger than him and ways he has used it. I felt weird about him encouraging people to buy shit houses in Cairo when that whole thing was happening. I don't know if he necessarily wants the kind of influence he has over kids, but he has it, and I don't know if he always uses it super responsibly, so believing he would use it in the same way in a sexual/romantic context doesn't really seem that out of line with what I've seen. I also believe he would use suicide threats as an emotional control tactic because I've seen it several times lately on Facebook from him.

As far as the molestation stuff, I saw some people comment on the thread who know the person and said it definitely happened, other people have confided similar stories to them, etc. But also, even without any other "evidence" or "witnesses" I really can't do anything other than believe the person reporting. Reporting this stuff is fucking hard. I didn't do shit about it any of the times it happened to me. I probably would have been even less likely to if it had been someone well known and liked. I figure there are a few possibilities:

1. Chris molested someone knowingly, maliciously, in which case, fuck him and how he feels about people's responses.

2. Chris molested someone either because he isn't clear on consent, he didn't understand because of his usual power differential that he has had basically his whole adult life,  his judgment was muddled by mental illness, alcohol, etc.

3. He didn't molest someone and he is the bastion of goodness the people defending him on Facebook are making him out to be. I have to believe if this were the case, though, he would understand the imperative to believe the person reporting by other people who understand the rape culture we live in.

momitsnowme

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Re: WTF
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2017, 08:16:23 PM »
So basically either way, I have to just assume the screenshot is accurate, especially until I hear what he has to say about it.

I am guessing the reality is something like the second option. People are really complicated. We live in a complicated culture. I don't think he's a bad person. I think he probably understands that it's pretty fucked up and probably feels like shit. I expect and hope he'll address it all.

momitsnowme

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Re: WTF
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2017, 08:20:19 PM »
But also that fucking thread on Facebook. People calling the victim manipulative, lying, etc. Can you imagine what it would be like to be someone with an unreported sexual assault reading that? Fucking of course nobody reports this shit.

I had dreams last night about being roofied and raped. I have very mixed feelings about the extent to which trigger warnings are used, but Jesus. The situation itself is shitty enough but reading people being absolute assholes sucks.

Anna Karina

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Re: WTF
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2017, 09:11:04 PM »
edit: nevermind, finally found it

rory

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Re: WTF
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2017, 10:53:36 PM »
I believe it. I know the person who brought this to light, though not well, and it really seems to me that there would be no earthly reason to lie. I mean, really, honestly, do people think that it ever goes well for someone to out a popular abuser? Anyone I've known that has tried to make some traction for accountability for someone with more social capital then themselves has gone down one seriously atrocious road - all after being victimized in the first place. It's like living in a bizarro world (especially in DIY/punk circles) where everyone talks a big game about accountability and sticking up for victims - except of course in this circumstance where this victim is a liar and this person accused is untouchable.

Considering Chris' power, and considering his pretty public openness about struggling with depression and mental heath, I do worry for him. I worry that in being a rash and unstable person with a wide reach like he does, what could for one person just be a step in getting to a place where accountability is possible - internalizing it and making a big to-do about being an awful person rotten to the core - will just get fueled by friends and acquaintances who will stick up for and support that. He will lean into the pity thing, because that's what people do, but I wonder how many people around him will tell him that he isn't an inherently and specifically evil person, and cannot take that easy way out of accountability. One needs to know that they fucked up in a way that isn't wholly characteristic of their personhood or being.  That doesn't mean that what they did is even remotely excusable or okay. But if this person's main request for accountability is seeking therapy (which, let's be honest here, is a pretty damn mild request), dude has to believe that he can change and be better.

His position of power and influence greatly plays into why something like this would happen, may have happened other times, and without intervention could happen again. If people really care about Chris, they need to hold him to the requests of the victim.

I've been thinking a lot about accountability and restorative justice, and we just see almost no good examples it's devastating. It's hard to know what to do.


This shit is fucked. I really hope that the victim finds some sort of peace. I do also hope that for Chris, in a way that is hard to talk about.
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momitsnowme

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Re: WTF
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2017, 09:37:11 PM »
Quote
this shit is fucked. I really hope that the victim finds some sort of peace. I do also hope that for Chris, in a way that is hard to talk about.

This

momitsnowme

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Re: WTF
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2017, 07:04:19 AM »
Well even with my rant about it not being a huge surprise, I'm having a harder time than I expected with his new post today. Him admitting it, comments coming out about there being at least four people who have come forward...ugh. I did some digging and people were making claims on Tumblr in 2014 and 2015. A couple of those name Ryan from Defiance, OH as well, as does a comment on the post today, so I don't even know, man. So fucked up.

I said it wouldn't surprise me, but to this extent?? And possibly Ryan too? Regardless, the silence of Defiance OH, Toby Foster, and everyone else in the Bloomington pix scene is deafening to me today.

I'm angry right now...angry that I just sent Chris money recently in the midst of him emotionally manipulating people, angry I've let him stay at my home, angry this now will taint the memories from pix fest and everything else, angry I can't share his music with my kids in the same way now, angry that I again feel like there is essentially no safe place in punk for women (which I thought pix was the answer to). I don't know. Ugh.

I'm glad he's going to therapy. Part of me is chicken shit to actually comment on Facebook and is worried what he'll think if he reads this because I don't want to burn bridges as a friend. But then I think fuck you...I probably have those feelings because of the same manipulative one-way "friendship" tactics he uses on everyone. Ugh.

manmagic

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Re: WTF
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2017, 04:14:19 PM »
Since I never got the full story on Paul B was this all part of the reason he left pix and the Bloomington scene? From comments of his on FB he seems pretty adiment about knowing about all this and having taken a stand several years back, but no one being on his side when he tried to do something about it.

Or are the two things completely unrelated?

BlakeK

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Re: WTF
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2017, 05:17:28 PM »
Since I never got the full story on Paul B was this all part of the reason he left pix and the Bloomington scene? From comments of his on FB he seems pretty adiment about knowing about all this and having taken a stand several years back, but no one being on his side when he tried to do something about it.

Or are the two things completely unrelated?
I was wondering the exact same thing because he's accusing others of knowing and not saying anything which would mean that he would have known for years as well. Did he ever say anything? Did anyone ever notice that Chris was almost exclusively interested in younger girls? What kind of red flags were there? I need to do some research because I'm behind as far as what's been said and done
Having said that, I'd rather listen to Papa Roach than GG Allin

momitsnowme

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Re: WTF
« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2017, 05:23:02 PM »
I don't want to break any confidentiality but I've been touch with Paul as well as two people who I trust who are in that scene. It seems like him being critical of the manipulative behavior of Chris and many others is part of why he left that community. It seems like he and others were aware of the shit Ryan has been accused of and that Chris raised red flags and has manipulative tendencies. It seems like the allegations of sexual abuse by Chris are new though.

momitsnowme

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Re: WTF
« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2017, 05:24:56 PM »
One of the people I spoke with does not think the two are related but admits that many people have been aware of Chris being creepy and manipulative.

Another person I talked to left the scene because it is all a mess and was convinced by Paul that people were acting shitty, which now seems to be coming to light.

momitsnowme

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Re: WTF
« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2017, 05:25:33 PM »
However I think there is more to the story of the falling out.

momitsnowme

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Re: WTF
« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2017, 05:26:20 PM »
I've been talking to everyone I trust with any insight and feel like a creep but I also feel betrayed and want to know the extent of how shitty people have been.

BlakeK

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Re: WTF
« Reply #19 on: August 23, 2017, 05:40:39 PM »
I've been talking to everyone I trust with any insight and feel like a creep but I also feel betrayed and want to know the extent of how shitty people have been.
Yeah this must be really hard for since you know Chris personally. I would feel betrayed too
Having said that, I'd rather listen to Papa Roach than GG Allin

Anna Karina

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Re: WTF
« Reply #20 on: August 23, 2017, 06:15:03 PM »
I'm still trying to process everything so I don't really have anything to add. I hope things get better for everyone involved and hopefully Chris doesn't just go into hiding without seeking help.

momitsnowme

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Re: WTF
« Reply #21 on: August 23, 2017, 06:32:19 PM »
I mean, it's not like we're bffs. He and his music and that scene are/were just really important to me and I liked thinking of him as a friend. I hope he acknowledges all of this in an actually productive way and makes some amends

None Genuine

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Re: WTF
« Reply #22 on: August 23, 2017, 06:53:49 PM »
Goddamnit, this is a gut punch.

I haven't been around these boards for a few years, but this label, and his bands, and subsequently, these boards were super important in influencing my own and so many folks' political and relational outlooks on life.

For one thing, there are very few people in the world, sadly, that this would absolutely SHOCK me about. Like surprise me, yes, but shock me to the point of not even believing it? Not many.

I think this is a pretty sad, but important and accurate way that a lot of us feel when shit like this happens. It's not unbelievable. As far as silver linings go, I hope this whole ordeal is an example of the fact that even folks you'd never imagine doing something like this can do something like this. Also, I hope it's a lesson in victim blaming/defending the accused. Obviously that shouldn't be the focal point of any of the discussion around this, but it's something that struck me with the way this played out.


ismybadluckrunningout

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Re: WTF
« Reply #23 on: August 23, 2017, 07:33:04 PM »
So. Throwaway account basically. I've been around for... awhile. I always heard passing stories of the weird shit Chris would get up to and also found his choices in age of girls to be really strange, but it never hit this level. Unfortunately, that kind of informs my not-surprised reaction to hearing this. A blow, sure, and I'm not saying I knew something and didn't speak up, it all just kind of flows together. I wish it weren't true but I 100% believe it, not that my opinion matters much.

I don't want to break any confidentiality but I've been touch with Paul as well as two people who I trust who are in that scene. It seems like him being critical of the manipulative behavior of Chris and many others is part of why he left that community. It seems like he and others were aware of the shit Ryan has been accused of and that Chris raised red flags and has manipulative tendencies. It seems like the allegations of sexual abuse by Chris are new though.


I was always getting the information that Paul had sort of jumped into throwing accusations around in all directions and it caused some friction (including from at least one person who he was supposedly defending but who was not interested in his approach or help), but it makes as much sense that it was legitimate because people are pretty crappy.

So, related, here's my big ask - can someone, publicly or privately, please tell me exactly what the Ryan story is, given that I've heard all sorts of allusions from multiple people and the fact that I have been his close friend for over a decade and we've had a romantic relationship? I know that doesn't necessitate me knowing anything or give me any sort of privilege to it, but hell, I'd like to know if I'm missing something. I just haven't been out in public much lately and could never get a direct story even from actual friends who were none too pleased with him.



momitsnowme

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Re: WTF
« Reply #24 on: August 23, 2017, 08:01:22 PM »
All I've seen is a few Tumblr posts from a few years ago with not much information. I'd like to hear more as well. I'm sorry you're coming across all this